Now & Then, Here & There

[senile_seinen]

Originally Posted by psygremlin

Another nice touch from Toubouki is Triela’s battle cry (after she snaps the blade of his knife). Sintendo has her going “Rahhh!” whilst Toubouki translate it something like “Kiaaiiii” – which given the Japanese origins of the story, plus her own military hand-to-hand combat, is a better fit methinks. I see they also took the effort to translate the dramatis personae, which although we know the people, was a nice touch. I only just realised on going back to the fight scene that she literally kills him with her bare hands, or fingers rather.

I just looked at the raws, and what she actually shouts is 'Uoootsu!!!' Lots of Japanese interjections are written with 'tsu' on the end - don't know why. And yes, if I remember right, it's a open-hand throat-strike, which is deadly when done full-force by a human of normal strength. Done by a cyborg in wound-up deathmatch mode, it's a little surprising that his head stayed attached to his body. Btw, arent those scans beautiful! It makes me wish for a bigger, higher-res monitor just so I could see the whole page at 100%. And yes, I always appreciate the translation of things like cast pages, omakes, and miscellaneous text. And, for the last page: Sintendo actually wins the literalness award here: she says 'ano' 'Hirushaa-san?'

Originally Posted by psygremlin

Aida’s attention to detail never fails to amaze me – from the artworks and painting displayed (apparently in the documentary on the DVD, even the paintings you see on office walls are actual paintings), plus the reference to Roman Holiday (which I only picked up thanks to wikipedia – I’m not that old!) The reference to ice cream confused me up to that point.

Yes, I didn't get that one either, until I saw the reference, then I smacked my forehead. Milady is a huge fan of several Audrey Hepburn movies, (she likes the Hepburn + Givenchy thing) but specifically dislikes Roman Holiday, so I've never seen all of it, but I should have recognized the lovers-on-a-vespa shot. Yes, it's pretty obvious to me that Aida must have been to Italy some point, and probably has a huge library of art books.

Originally Posted by psygremlin

The mine incident raises a couple of points regarding Henrietta’s training. Half-jokingly I have to compliment her on a bicycle kick that would make Ronaldo blush (just what don’t they teach these girls? Makes you wonder if there’s some truth to the comments the handlers were passing about using the girls in a soccer team (when they were observing Etta’s medical). Heh - if they enter a mixed league, I wouldn’t want to be the guy who fouls Jose!)

No kidding! Seriously, though, I think that was actually a martial arts middle extension roundhouse kick (which, admittedly is the same thing as a bicycle kick). Done low it's a sweeper, done high it's mostly used to make the opponent raise his guard. To the middle you are likely to get your leg grabbed, but it's useful against a stunned opponent if you want to break some ribs. Combined with a meter-high vertical jump you have a pretty efficient weapon or, in this case, grenade swatter.

Originally Posted by psygremlin

Although it’s true her actions saved the people in the room, it’s obvious her intention is to protect Jose at all costs, even at the expense of others – the two guys standing outside the door take the full brunt of the mine. Maybe that’s a bit harsh, they just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. (There’s also maybe a hint of self-preservation – she didn’t do the clichéd ‘throw myself on top of the grenade’ thing – although seeing as it was in mid-air that might have been a bit difficult)

Well, that falls right in line with the conditioning, and with the conditioning of military working dogs I've observed. The girls *have* to be keyed on one person - you can't serve two masters. I think the rules of the conditioning look sort of like Asimov's laws of robotics. 1) protect your handler at all costs. 2) if possible, act in a way to retain your operational capability, 3) try to minimize collateral damage while always obeying the first two laws.

Seen this way, all of her behaviors make perfect sense. The laws are simple enough that a ten year old girl could practically apply them. They also explain entertaining instances like the waiter with the tableware and the table in the indoor firing range. Since Jose doesn't want to condition her harder, he has to teach her not to kill everybody in the room if somebody tries to give him a bloody nose (as we see in her first chapter) basically he has to teach her to bump up the priority of the third law a little higher than she would choose to by default.

Originally Posted by psygremlin

Also, I think she is paranoid to a degree about being removed from active duty, probably because that would separate her from Jose (I shudder to think what that would do to her psyche, especially if she ever met her replacement. But I suppose that’s what conditioning is for). I assume there’s still a threat hanging over her head after her opening shooting spree. Going back to the medical scene, she claims something along the lines of “I killed 10 people this week, that’s more than Triela” (again – how wrong does that sound coming out of a 10-year old’s mouth?) and I think in the manga the doctor (or somebody) says that she keeps a record of the number of kills – obviously to prove her own ongoing worth. (Thanks for the reminder of the scene with the waiter, had forgotten that. The anime shows us just how effective she can be, in overpowering him and preparing to kill – almost one fluid motion).

Yes, the 'I killed more people than Triela!' line is one that made squinch at the time. It's just wrong coming out of happy little Henrietta's mouth. Quite simply: she tries her hardest at her job because she knows it's how to please Jose. Jose, for his part, would probably be a lot happier if she could get away with just pleasing him with playing her violin. She knows that she has to be an effective operative in order to be regularly sent on assignments (or she gets sidelined like Angelica often does), and she knows that fratello relationships aren't automatically permanent (because she sees Claes every day). I suspect her conditioning makes her 'know' that her handler will be pleased with her if she carries out her assignments efficiently, so she tries very hard to do so. the 'let me see your hand' scene also points out that Jose is nobody's fool, and that he understand Henrietta very well. That's why he's alive, and Lauro isn't.

Originally Posted by psygremlin

Have to comment on another simple, but effective, touch Aida uses in the manga. Where Marco and Angelica ambush Franca and Franco, we get a glimpse of her standing on tiptoe on top of an (I assume) ammo box, so she can see over the roof of the car. If you didn’t know she was busy pouring rounds into the oncoming car, you’d almost go, ”Aw! Cute!”

Yes...I noticed that too. Aida never misses a chance to show us that these are little girls killing people with Dragunovs...

Originally Posted by psygremlin

Lalaroo doesn’t really say much the whole series really, I dunno if voice actors get paid per word, but whoever did her, wasn’t eating well during recording. She comes into her own as well though, although it’s pretty hard to knock Shuu out of the spotlight. I must confess I found his endless optimism a bit hard to swallow. Sure, it’s great to know that no matter what, there is somebody who won’t give up, but I’m sure even Superman goes ”oh, bugger” sometimes… just off-screen so we can’t see him.

Well, he's the force for change in the stable (psychotic, but stable) system. He's got to have huge amounts of strength of spirit (which is a not-bad translation for 'genki').

[psygremlin]

Originally Posted by senile_seinen

Btw, arent those scans beautiful!

I must confess, that on top of everything else, this is probably one of the best drawn mangas I've come across. The fight scene is brillintly done- I tend to find in quite a few others the image gets lost in motion lines and sound effects, but this is crisp and clear and portrays the intensity perfectly. I had to smile at the scene where she's annoyed because he's just shot her with her gun... not worried about being shot per se, but he had the cheek to use her gun to do it.

It might also explain why this - to date - is his one big story. I don't know if he has time for anything else, what with the artwork and research that goes into this series. Maybe the character design for the H-game was so he could have something with his tofu that month.

Originally Posted by senile_seinen

Sintendo actually wins the literalness award here: she says 'ano' 'Hirushaa-san?'

Here's a new twist - compare Toukoubi's and Sintendo's tranlation of the 2nd last page of the chapter - especially Triela's words before Hillshire hugs her. I don't think it changes the reasons for his response, but the Toubouki translation casts Triela in a whole new light for me... especially her plaintive "Aren't you even going to praise me?" You might need to consult your raws (where did you find those btw) to see who got it right, but that is heartbreaking. If Triela had a tail, it would be wagging expectanctly. Again, I think it gives us an insight into not just how highly conditioned she actually is, but it's also another "little girl" moment Aida throws at us.

Agree totally on your analogy of Asimov's laws - nicely thought out and like you said, easy enough for an excitable 10-year old to follow. Agree with having to bump up Rule 3's application though - I think it was Rabello who says "they need to be able to distinguish between friend and foe" after the shooting range incident.

Onto NTHT...

don't know how far you are, so will avoid spoliers, but I was thinking last night (started watching it again after eventually getting it back from people I lent it too). If I had to draw parallel between NTHT and any other anime, I'd probably lean towards Princess Monoroke (sp?). It has the same theme that there isn't a clear line between good and bad. We see people doing what they believe is right... even if it's wrong in our eyes. Even Hamdo - although we see him as evil - is probably only doing what he does, because in his little paranoid megalomaniacal world, it's the right thing to do.

[senile_seinen]

Originally Posted by psygremlin

I must confess, that on top of everything else, this is probably one of the best drawn mangas I've come across. The fight scene is brillintly done- I tend to find in quite a few others the image gets lost in motion lines and sound effects, but this is crisp and clear and portrays the intensity perfectly. I had to smile at the scene where she's annoyed because he's just shot her with her gun... not worried about being shot per se, but he had the cheek to use her gun to do it.

Cheek is a good word. Audacity or, more colorfully, chutzpah would also fit. Yes, it's a great scene, and I agree the fight is very well drawn. I also agree with you that many shounen action manga tend to spend more ink on emotional intensity than on actually telling you what's happening. Aida strikes a good balance, and I suspect he also is a fan of Ikegami Ryochi, who drew Crying Freeman, Heat and Strain among others - his shading is distinctly reminiscent of Ikegami's, and his action scenes are not dissimilar. Aida's in very good company with this comparison.

Originally Posted by psygremlin

It might also explain why this - to date - is his one big story. I don't know if he has time for anything else, what with the artwork and research that goes into this series. Maybe the character design for the H-game was so he could have something with his tofu that month.

I hope he has another income source, or that GSG pays better than I suspect it does... It's obviously a labor of love.

Originally Posted by psygremlin

Here's a new twist - compare Toukoubi's and Sintendo's tranlation of the 2nd last page of the chapter - especially Triela's words before Hillshire hugs her. I don't think it changes the reasons for his response, but the Toubouki translation casts Triela in a whole new light for me... especially her plaintive "Aren't you even going to praise me?" You might need to consult your raws (where did you find those btw) to see who got it right, but that is heartbreaking. If Triela had a tail, it would be wagging expectanctly. Again, I think it gives us an insight into not just how highly conditioned she actually is, but it's also another "little girl" moment Aida throws at us.

My best (rather feeble and intentionally super-literal) effort at translation for the page goes:

It's different this time. I killed Pinocchio!

The special training made the difference.

Hillshire-san?

褒めてくれないんですか？
You aren't going to give praise?

I followed orders...

I defeated the enemy...

I included the Japanese for her plaintive question so you can try it yourself.

So you see Toukoubi did, in fact, give you the goodness of the page. Only choosing to change 'ano' to 'I' isn't quite literal, and that flows better with the English translation. I seem to recall having gotten the JP raws off the ED2K network. Try searching for ガンスリンガー

Originally Posted by psygremlin

Agree totally on your analogy of Asimov's laws - nicely thought out and like you said, easy enough for an excitable 10-year old to follow. Agree with having to bump up Rule 3's application though - I think it was Rabello who says "they need to be able to distinguish between friend and foe" after the shooting range incident.

I re-read Bicentennial Man not long ago, and there was a thread in Freefall about why Jean's robots aren't three-laws robots, so it was fresh in memory. It just made sense when I played with it.

Originally Posted by psygremlin

Onto NTHT...

don't know how far you are, so will avoid spoliers, but I was thinking last night (started watching it again after eventually getting it back from people I lent it too). If I had to draw parallel between NTHT and any other anime, I'd probably lean towards Princess Monoroke (sp?). It has the same theme that there isn't a clear line between good and bad. We see people doing what they believe is right... even if it's wrong in our eyes. Even Hamdo - although we see him as evil - is probably only doing what he does, because in his little paranoid megalomaniacal world, it's the right thing to do.

Yes, I'd say either Mononoke Hime or Nausicaa. They're very similar movies in some respects, and both share that ambiguousness of character definition which I really like (probably crave after too much Hollywood pablum). Hamdo's so crazy that it's hard to say if he's actually evil or not. OTOH, he killed a cat with his bare hands just because he was angry. I can't regard that as a good thing to do. Likewise at least at one point in the first few eps, there's a definite suggestion that he does something unwholesome to La La Ru.

But I'd say everybody else in Hellywood seems to be just following orders. Now that I think about it, it's a literal analogy for the last two years of Hitlerian Germany. Almost exact, in fact, right down to the idea that the only purpose of a woman is to make more soldiers for the fatherland.

[psygremlin]

Argh! Homework! Agree with the kanji for praise (thank goodness for software), now just to make sense of the hira (めてくれないんですか), which if I convert to romaji comes out as “me te ku re na i n de su ka”, but my dictionary isn’t helping with an answer for various contractions of those.

(How do you know where the word breaks are, anyway – I know the ‘n’ ends a word? That’s always the bit that kills me. Also, it’s read top down (if printed like that) or left to right, or right to left? I’m assuming left to right. Sorry for the quick Japanese lesson request!) Phew! I have a long way to go with this!


Re-read Vol 4 last night, and there’s some interesting stuff going on that I didn’t pick up on before, quite a few scenes that give us a deeper insight into the characters – and a couple of strange ones too. In chap 18, Claes and Jean have the kind of conversation I’d almost expect Jose and Henrietta to have. His attitude towards her is light years away from his towards Rico. Very strange – maybe because he ordered Rabello’s ‘silencing’ and - I can’t see Jean feeling guilty – but he’s trying to provide a paternal role for her. (Aren’t the musical notes when she’s on the piano another glorious touch – I’d bet anything they’re a proper music score too).

We also get an insight into just how uncomfortable Jose’s feeling about Henrietta in his chat with Marco, plus Etta’s confession to the doctor that she wants more attention. I’m starting to get a feeling it’s all going to end in tears.

There’s also a hint of something – rebellion is too strong a word – in both Triela and Etta. When T’s sulking on top of the roof at the base (chap 19), the look she gives Hillshire before jumping down could curdle milk. I suppose she is brooding over the beating she took from Pinnochio and the pending special forces training, but it’s the first time I’ve seen her less than pleased to see Hillshire. I guess that add to that the fact that they’re both brooding over the fratello – in the opening scene of the volume T says there’s problems, it’s setting things up nicely for the end of Vol 5.

Likewise, Etta does something similar – with the walking on the curbstones scene. Straight after Jean tells Rico to get off, she starts walking on it – after a very strange look crosses her face. (Not to mention the look on her face just before when she sees Jean holding Rico’s wrist – we already know Jose doesn’t touch her – well, until the end of the chapter anyway, when he pinches her cheek, which was probably Christmas and Easter rolled into one for her) I dunno – it’s almost a test to see if Jose’s paying attention, which he doesn’t appear to be. She’s also been doing an awful lot of thinking about their relationship – which I don’t think is good. She says things like “I want to be closer to him” when the other girls would probably kill (ok, bad analogy) to have a handler like Jose. I dunno – I’m starting to get a bad feeling about young Henrietta.

Oh and how horrible are the scenes where Jean has Rico basically pummelling a suspect to a pulp to get information out him? Another very wrong scene – from the look on Rico’s face, you know she’s not going to stop until told to - especially when it’s immediately offset against Henrietta happily sightseeing. Not that I know much about opera, but the use of Tosca – and the discussion the girls have about it – was another brilliant touch.

I wonder if we’re going to see more of Beatrice and Bernado, or if they were just a guest appearance – there’s a been a couple of scenes with other children in the background.


NTHT

Yes! I saw the scenes between Hamdo and Lala Ru again last night and it’s changed my perspective (plus I’m glad it’s not just me that thought very untoward stuff had been happening) towards him. Even so, I’m not sure he’s aware of what he’s doing is wrong – I think he’s at the point where he no longer differentiates or knows. Even the abuse scene we are witness to, made me cringe. I think it was around this point, plus where we see Shuu being hanged – suspended being a better word I guess, that I made the original posting to this thread. It was the first time I’m come across such a graphic depiction of violence in an anime. This wasn’t people being killed in battle or by assassins – this was physical abuse.

There’s actually a hell of a lot of cruelty in this series – even the treatment of Sis is horrible, but I don’t think it lowers itself to a suffer fest.

Hellywood is a prime example of a dictatorship, with the knobs turned up. Good comparison with Nazi Germany (grrr! Why didn’t I think of that), especially when you factor in the propaganda (“we’ll go home after the war, that’s why we’re fighting”), plus you have the youth, who are not only following orders, but possibly can’t remember a life pre-Hellywood, being thrown into the breach. The attitude towards the soldiers is almost more Stalin-esque than Hitler though – if I throw enough numbers against them it doesn’t matter how many I lose, we’ll eventually overwhelm them.

[psygremlin]

Quick aside - dunno if you followed the thread on mangaviewers, but CDisplay (www.cdisplay.net) can do a 2 per view screenshot. Simply click on configure and display 2 pages.

[senile_seinen]

Originally Posted by psygremlin

Argh! Homework! Agree with the kanji for praise (thank goodness for software), now just to make sense of the hira (めてくれないんですか), which if I convert to romaji comes out as “me te ku re na i n de su ka”, but my dictionary isn’t helping with an answer for various contractions of those.

(How do you know where the word breaks are, anyway – I know the ‘n’ ends a word? That’s always the bit that kills me. Also, it’s read top down (if printed like that) or left to right, or right to left? I’m assuming left to right. Sorry for the quick Japanese lesson request!) Phew! I have a long way to go with this!

<ahem> I'll note that the only reason your kanji software worked was because I used the multiradical kanji finder to track that bugger down. I'm getting better at it, but I warn you that reading the definitions isn't as easy as it looks.

You're at that point where it's time to actually learn a little Japanese. Once you know the language a little, identifying word breaks becomes a lot simpler, because you both know some words, and you have an idea how the grammar works. Forexample,there'snoreasonwecouldn'twriteEnglishth isway. Infact,itiswrittenthiswaywhencyphersareusedtopreventproviding informationonwordbreakswithspacecharacters. If we add in the useful fact that the average Japanese sentence is shorter than the average English sentence, word spacing really looks redundant.

OK, so let's take the whole sentence:

褒めてくれないんですか？

hometekurenaindesuka?

Well, Starting at the action end (like Latin, the verb is at the end), we have desuka, which is desu (the copula in distal-polite-present tense) and ka (the interrogative particle). Strictly speaking, the question mark is redundant - it's stolen from western typography and is neither necessary nor used in traditional Japanese writing.

So a simple sentence I would use when meeting you might be:

貴方はサイグレムレンですか？
Anata wa, Psygremlin desu ka? (Yes, particle 'wa' is written 'ha')

Wiktionary identifies 褒 as ほめる. That ru ending is the infinitive (to praise). But she's requesting praise, so she conjugates it in the request form, which ends in -te. If, for instance, I were (for some unfathomable reason) asking you to praise my son, I'd say:

エちゃんは褒めてください。

That leaves us with　くれないん. ない is the simple negative, and can be applied to the end of a verb to indicate the opposite. One possible response to the サイグレムレンですか sentence is:

いいえサイグレムレンないです。 (no, (I'm) not Psygremlin)

the ん is a syllabic liason to です.

That leaves くれる, which this tells us is "to give."

So, putting it all together, we get:

homete kurenai n desu ka?
praise won't give (you) is/are/happens/occurs?

or, rendered into comprehensible English:

You aren't going to give (me) praise?

Poor Triela. I don't think that was really the praise she wanted.

Originally Posted by psygremlin

Re-read Vol 4 last night, and there’s some interesting stuff going on that I didn’t pick up on before, quite a few scenes that give us a deeper insight into the characters – and a couple of strange ones too. In chap 18, Claes and Jean have the kind of conversation I’d almost expect Jose and Henrietta to have. His attitude towards her is light years away from his towards Rico. Very strange – maybe because he ordered Rabello’s ‘silencing’ and - I can’t see Jean feeling guilty – but he’s trying to provide a paternal role for her. (Aren’t the musical notes when she’s on the piano another glorious touch – I’d bet anything they’re a proper music score too).

We also get an insight into just how uncomfortable Jose’s feeling about Henrietta in his chat with Marco, plus Etta’s confession to the doctor that she wants more attention. I’m starting to get a feeling it’s all going to end in tears.

There’s also a hint of something – rebellion is too strong a word – in both Triela and Etta. When T’s sulking on top of the roof at the base (chap 19), the look she gives Hillshire before jumping down could curdle milk. I suppose she is brooding over the beating she took from Pinnochio and the pending special forces training, but it’s the first time I’ve seen her less than pleased to see Hillshire. I guess that add to that the fact that they’re both brooding over the fratello – in the opening scene of the volume T says there’s problems, it’s setting things up nicely for the end of Vol 5.

Likewise, Etta does something similar – with the walking on the curbstones scene. Straight after Jean tells Rico to get off, she starts walking on it – after a very strange look crosses her face. (Not to mention the look on her face just before when she sees Jean holding Rico’s wrist – we already know Jose doesn’t touch her – well, until the end of the chapter anyway, when he pinches her cheek, which was probably Christmas and Easter rolled into one for her) I dunno – it’s almost a test to see if Jose’s paying attention, which he doesn’t appear to be. She’s also been doing an awful lot of thinking about their relationship – which I don’t think is good. She says things like “I want to be closer to him” when the other girls would probably kill (ok, bad analogy) to have a handler like Jose. I dunno – I’m starting to get a bad feeling about young Henrietta.

I remember the curbstones scene. I don't really remember the Claes/Jean scene. Will have to reread the volume and pay attention this time.

Originally Posted by psygremlin

Oh and how horrible are the scenes where Jean has Rico basically pummelling a suspect to a pulp to get information out him? Another very wrong scene – from the look on Rico’s face, you know she’s not going to stop until told to - especially when it’s immediately offset against Henrietta happily sightseeing. Not that I know much about opera, but the use of Tosca – and the discussion the girls have about it – was another brilliant touch.

I wonder if we’re going to see more of Beatrice and Bernado, or if they were just a guest appearance – there’s a been a couple of scenes with other children in the background.

I vividly remember the Rico beating the suspect scene. In a way it's good that the girls have limited lifespans - imagine the therapy bills if they grew up...

I know that in coming volumes the new Russian Mark II model makes her appearance. Don't know much about Beatrice at all. It makes sense they'd bring another fratello online to replace Elsa's. If you have a big action like the one at the end of vol 5, you can be short of functional fratellos rather quickly - only Angelica (oddly enough) is immediately ready for action out of the four of them.

Originally Posted by psygremlin

NTHT

Yes! I saw the scenes between Hamdo and Lala Ru again last night and it’s changed my perspective (plus I’m glad it’s not just me that thought very untoward stuff had been happening) towards him. Even so, I’m not sure he’s aware of what he’s doing is wrong – I think he’s at the point where he no longer differentiates or knows. Even the abuse scene we are witness to, made me cringe. I think it was around this point, plus where we see Shuu being hanged – suspended being a better word I guess, that I made the original posting to this thread. It was the first time I’m come across such a graphic depiction of violence in an anime. This wasn’t people being killed in battle or by assassins – this was physical abuse.

There’s actually a hell of a lot of cruelty in this series – even the treatment of Sis is horrible, but I don’t think it lowers itself to a suffer fest.

Yes, it's all pretty horrible. Which is the point, I guess. What I find interesting is that they're somehow managing to keep the functionary characters kind of sympathetic even though they're aiding or committing these horrible crimes against innocent people. The second soldier who has Sara as a guest seems rather uninterested in the prurient value of what he thinks is about to happen. He's all about making strong soldiers for Hellywood. Likewise, Nabuca and Boo 'escort' her to the first of these visits. They seem like reasonably nice people, but don't seem to have any problem with what's about to happen to her. Even Abelia doesn't seem to be actually evil as much as stuck in an unpleasant place. Arendt was the first to refer to the 'banality of evil' when speaking of a Nazi war criminal...

Originally Posted by psygremlin

Hellywood is a prime example of a dictatorship, with the knobs turned up. Good comparison with Nazi Germany (grrr! Why didn’t I think of that), especially when you factor in the propaganda (“we’ll go home after the war, that’s why we’re fighting”), plus you have the youth, who are not only following orders, but possibly can’t remember a life pre-Hellywood, being thrown into the breach. The attitude towards the soldiers is almost more Stalin-esque than Hitler though – if I throw enough numbers against them it doesn’t matter how many I lose, we’ll eventually overwhelm them.

"We'll go home" sounds fine until you learn what they do to villages they raid for cannon fodder in the 'lost in the sandstorm' show... Hitler's insanity tended toward the use of superweapons, as we see hellywood use at one point in battle with the result of wasting a lot of hellywood's own troops. No doubt if Hitler had possesed tactical nukes he would have killed a lot of his own men collaterally as well. Stalin tended to chew through troops mostly because he was technically behind the curve compared to the wermacht in 1941 and 42. He didn't have good tanks or good ground attack airplanes, but he did have plenty of hardy peasants.

[psygremlin]

Originally Posted by senile_seinen

<ahem> I'll note that the only reason your kanji software worked was because I used the multiradical kanji finder to track that bugger down. I'm getting better at it, but I warn you that reading the definitions isn't as easy as it looks.

Arigatou, Rousui Seinen-San! (Haven't figured out how to get the hira characters in here yet!)
Seriously, though - thank you so much for that - didn't expect that level of detail (hope there weren't too many dark mutterings about gaijin while you were typing ), but you've certainly cleared a few things up, and your reply has been carefull filed my other notes for future reference when translating. Agree with you about tracking down kanji - I normally have a rough guess at the stroke count and then have to scroll through, which can get interesting with the complicated ones, especially with a blurry original.

I'd guess I've probably a working vocab of about 30 words at the moment - th usual stuff like watashi, nani, and koko, and arigatou, that I can pick up in conversation and recognise the kata/hira for. (Ironically I probably know more Japanese than I do Zulu and I've lived here for 30-odd years! (But then again, there's never been a Zulu anime!) Obviously there's a long way to go - as you so eloquently explained, it's the grammar and sentance structure that I really need to get my head around. I'm debating carrying on myself at the moment (there's a special warm feeling you get when something like arigatou suddenly appears from a maze of squiggles), making use of the resources out there, or taking the step of formalising my studies - even if only online. At the end of the day it comes down to practice - you'll be pleased to know, I've made the conversion to listening to the original soundtrack, with subtitles. I also find listening to the OSTs helps too.

The wa/ha clarified something for me too - I always thought it was konnichiwa, so was surprised when my dictionary (www.freelang.net) spelt it konnichiha. Now I know. Remind me that if I'm ever in your neck of the woods I owe you a bunch of beers!

Originally Posted by senile_seinen

I vividly remember the Rico beating the suspect scene. In a way it's good that the girls have limited lifespans - imagine the therapy bills if they grew up...

Don't worry, I think Jose and Hillshire will be keeping them busy (the shrinks I mean, not the girls) for years. Marco too, probably.

I know that in coming volumes the new Russian Mark II model makes her appearance.

Really? That could lead to some interesting reactions from the girls - meeting a better them. I've said it before and I'll say it again... roll on Vol 6...

Originally Posted by senile_seinen

Yes, it's all pretty horrible. Which is the point, I guess. What I find interesting is that they're somehow managing to keep the functionary characters kind of sympathetic even though they're aiding or committing these horrible crimes against innocent people.

Again, I think it does tie in with the "doing it because we think (been told) it's right". Nabuca certainly doesn't strike me as a psychotic killer (unlike the blond DBZ escapee lookalike (to use WW2 analogies - Nabuca is a normal foot soldier, whilst the blone is (or has aspiations to be) Waffen SS)) and he probably knows that he's dragging Sara off to be raped, but he also knows (from what's been drummed into him), that it's for the good of Hellywood, and if it's good, they'll win the war faster and then he can go home. Again, drawing a WW2 analogy, Sara could be fulfilling the role of the comfort girls the Japanese used (which given the touchiness on that little subject in the East, took a brave story-teller to add), plus - and this goes back to your banality of evil quote - I remember in reading the Rise & Fall of the 3rd Reich ages ago a comment something along the lines of the fact that they couldn't believe that concentration camp guards could happily go home to a wife and family at some point; that there were essentially ordinary people doing extraordinarily horrible things.

At the end of the day, you don't have to be evil to do evil things, but circumstances can make you do evil things (suddenly, the title starts to make more sense). Abelia seems to tolerate Hamdo at best, but won't hesitate from following his orders, no matter what they are - again, because it's in her best interests to do so. She would have had one of the 'I was only obeying orders, or I'd be shot' defences at Nuremburg. It's the old thing about "All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Here, Shuu fills the role of the good man who does something.

[senile_seinen]

Originally Posted by psygremlin

Arigatou, Rousui Seinen-San! (Haven't figured out how to get the hira characters in here yet!)
Seriously, though - thank you so much for that - didn't expect that level of detail (hope there weren't too many dark mutterings about gaijin while you were typing ), but you've certainly cleared a few things up, and your reply has been carefull filed my other notes for future reference when translating. Agree with you about tracking down kanji - I normally have a rough guess at the stroke count and then have to scroll through, which can get interesting with the complicated ones, especially with a blurry original.

Yes, the blurry originals cause me the most pain. What's even more maddening is when you are reading shounen or shoujo, and the kanji is too blurry to make out, and the helper hiragana are too small/fuzzy to read.

Originally Posted by psygremlin

I'd guess I've probably a working vocab of about 30 words at the moment - th usual stuff like watashi, nani, and koko, and arigatou, that I can pick up in conversation and recognise the kata/hira for. (Ironically I probably know more Japanese than I do Zulu and I've lived here for 30-odd years! (But then again, there's never been a Zulu anime!) Obviously there's a long way to go - as you so eloquently explained, it's the grammar and sentance structure that I really need to get my head around. I'm debating carrying on myself at the moment (there's a special warm feeling you get when something like arigatou suddenly appears from a maze of squiggles), making use of the resources out there, or taking the step of formalising my studies - even if only online. At the end of the day it comes down to practice - you'll be pleased to know, I've made the conversion to listening to the original soundtrack, with subtitles. I also find listening to the OSTs helps too.

Yes, it's all about practice and exposure. Milady is even picking up more Japanese from the subbed anime, albeit much slower than I do because I had actual classes in it, so have an intellectual framework to hang the words on.

Want to hear something unusual? The butler in Binchou-tan speaks in high-formal super-polite Japanese. He's the first male I've ever heard use the forms.

Originally Posted by psygremlin

The wa/ha clarified something for me too - I always thought it was konnichiwa, so was surprised when my dictionary (www.freelang.net) spelt it konnichiha. Now I know. Remind me that if I'm ever in your neck of the woods I owe you a bunch of beers!

The 'wa' particle (which I generally translate as 'speaking of' and then put the subject after) is always written as 'ha.' Konnichiwa is actually a short form: kon (from kono - 'this') nichi ('day') wa ('speaking of'). There's an implied predicate that means something like "I wish you a good one." String it all together and you get, "Speaking of this day, I wish you a good one." which is a circumlocution in English, but simpler and pleasant in Japanese. The actual 'wa' syllable is, as I understand it, not used in modern Japanese.

You run across these rounded-off sentences other places, too - If you are looking for someone or something, you simply say '[name] wa?' You can see this one in Tonari no Yamada-kun when Nanako (or is she Nanami?) asks, 'To-san wa?' of her mother, who replies that he's gone on a business trip. The implied predicate would be something like 'doko desu ka?'

Originally Posted by psygremlin

Again, I think it does tie in with the "doing it because we think (been told) it's right". Nabuca certainly doesn't strike me as a psychotic killer (unlike the blond DBZ escapee lookalike (to use WW2 analogies - Nabuca is a normal foot soldier, whilst the blone is (or has aspiations to be) Waffen SS)) and he probably knows that he's dragging Sara off to be raped, but he also knows (from what's been drummed into him), that it's for the good of Hellywood, and if it's good, they'll win the war faster and then he can go home. Again, drawing a WW2 analogy, Sara could be fulfilling the role of the comfort girls the Japanese used (which given the touchiness on that little subject in the East, took a brave story-teller to add), plus - and this goes back to your banality of evil quote - I remember in reading the Rise & Fall of the 3rd Reich ages ago a comment something along the lines of the fact that they couldn't believe that concentration camp guards could happily go home to a wife and family at some point; that there were essentially ordinary people doing extraordinarily horrible things.

Yes, I saw the 'comfort woman' resonance as well. I honestly don't know if this is obvious political/historical commentary, subtle political/historical commentary, or an oblivious coincidence relative to the intended Japanese audience. Shirer (who wrote Rise and Fall...) has a little bit of that CBS News bombast about his writing (made famous by Walter Cronkite), but does a good job of giving you Joe average American (of 1938)'s view of events, presuming that said Joe was lucky/unlucky enough to be in Berlin in the late '30s. That is to say that the average prewar American was an innocent about how casually evil people can choose to be to each other...which is odd, because there were things like lynchings going on in the US at that time.

Originally Posted by psygremlin

At the end of the day, you don't have to be evil to do evil things, but circumstances can make you do evil things (suddenly, the title starts to make more sense). Abelia seems to tolerate Hamdo at best, but won't hesitate from following his orders, no matter what they are - again, because it's in her best interests to do so. She would have had one of the 'I was only obeying orders, or I'd be shot' defences at Nuremburg. It's the old thing about "All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Here, Shuu fills the role of the good man who does something.

Yes, Shuu has, most of all, to be inflexible in his beliefs. He's definitely more of a George S. Patton than a Ghandi. 'Good men to do nothing' turns out to be a heavy bowdlerization of a more complex idea, originally written by Edmund Burke.